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    Gooner

    What's all that s'posed to mean? You've lost me. It read like the same drivel I read from Rod Oram in the Sunday Star Times: all puffery and no substance.

    George D

    What's all that s'posed to mean?

    I wonder the same things.

    George D

    That wasn't meant as a criticism, by the way. Just a question. What do those words /mean/?

    Tony Milne

    It was a long post :) which words in particular?

    George D

    I'm a practical man, Tony, I like to see policies, suggestions about what should be changed. I've heard too many fine words in my time, and I've only been on this earth since the early 80s. I don't expect you to make policy on the run, but defining what specific things you think Labour could change is important, otherwise it gets quite vague. That was Helen Clark's problem - she often refused to engage with real policy instruments that would have brought immediate improvements (at little or no political cost, in many cases).

    That said, I thought the second paragraph was particularly important. I think Labour MPs and local candidates need to work with those communities who are being stripped of their clean water funding right now. That is one seriously bad idea, and I'm shocked that the Government is even contemplating it.

    Tony Milne

    I see. I could name lots of specifics, but in this post I was trying to look at some of the bigger debates/assumptions that a lot of the specifics are debated around. That right leaning voters do care about the environment, that environmental action doesn't have to come at an economic cost, and that a new generation will have to advance environmental issues in a similar way as the nuclear free movement.

    I'll start working on a post with specifics (but it is also important to contest the assumptions - particularly environmental progress = economic cost).

    George D

    That right leaning voters do care about the environment, that environmental action doesn't have to come at an economic cost, and that a new generation will have to advance environmental issues in a similar way as the nuclear free movement.

    I agree. If you compare how a environmental and foreign policy transferred over to National from the 4th Labour Govt, it's quite disappointing. National let DOC funding slide, but otherwise they were pretty good. I think it is one of unfortunate realities of NZ politics that there has been no new 21st century environmental consensus created that would have been carried over to the current Government. I think Labour have some of the blame (although how much I don't know), and National a great deal more. The extremist anti-environmental activists in ACT and National haven't been marginalised in the last few years, and now they're setting a lot of the terms of the debate.

    How do we move on from here? I think building coalitions is important. And for that, I think you need genuine dialogues and rational debate between groups that have a lot of support and mana. That should involve; environmental groups, of course, but also communities, scientists, specific sectoral interests, and groups who have intersecting interests in the problems you're presenting. From there, you can build policy positions that are both environmentally sound and have strong support from most. In order to have those conversations though, people need to feel like they can talk to your party - a reasonable number of moderate environmentalists felt shut out. There were specific issues where they could have meetings with ministers and make good progress or at least relay their understanding, and others in which their letters would simply be acknowledged. I think that can change - I'd start by getting Carter, Robertson, and whoever else is dealing with environment in Labour to sit down with Cath Wallace for an afternoon to simply listen. And do the same for other key groups.

    Ultimately, I think there will be cost. To pretend otherwise is naive, and puts you up for a fall. It also gives the initiative to those self-interested sectors who can express their upset about costs most most loudly. It's difficult politically, certainly.

    I think that people are willing to weather some cost once you've got them on board, and they feel like they have a common stake in a position. Emphasising shared values seems to me to be key, in the same way as you the welfare state is "sold" politically. That's hard, of course, but it needs to be done.

    George D

    That should have been Carter and Parker [rather than Robertson]

    Regan

    NZ has tried to elect a Green / Labour government on several occasions. However, Labour kept going with the other guys and implementing policies that had little or no real impact upon the quality of the environment. If you want green policies... vote for the Green party.

    Tony Milne

    Regan, that's a bit of a myth - but regardless I'm interesting in looking to the future, not the past.

    And yes, if people want Green policies, they should vote Green. Seems pretty logical.

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